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Was a green Dune a good idea?

topic posted Fri, June 4, 2004 - 10:33 AM by 
I was wondering, was Liets idea of a green Dune a good idea? or was it actually a set back, I mean the freman become weak and dont use there still suits and stuff, worms die, less spice. But this question begs a bigger question, how does Frank Herbert interpret the passing of events, are historical events good, bad or both? For example the Tyrant is good and bad right? or just one or another? I was just wondering what you guys thought.
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  • silv...
    silverden
    offline 55

    Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

    Thu, June 10, 2004 - 11:23 AM
    I think that ther Tryant was bad, but Leto had to become him so that the wonderful future that he foresaw(Golden Path) could happen. It seems to me that in this world, we have to go through some terrible struggles, and seemingly what is sooo important about these struggles is not that we survive them, but rather what we learn from them. I think the same is true for the God Emperor story. What did the people learn about total autonomy? What did they learn about free trade? How was there society changed over the few thousand year life spand of Leto?
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  • ph17...
    ph170m@ter
    offline 10

    Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

    Thu, June 10, 2004 - 12:03 PM
    working to turn your home into paradise is always going to be a great motivating force. I think that the pure liet/fremen "green" dune would not have been as dramatic a change as what they got...

    the tyrant was good because the whole point of the golden path was to avoid the extinction of the entire human race as a result of some crazy super weapon that leto alludes to in his journals. That is my interpretation anyways...

    he constricted humans so they would later explode out into the universe. Perhaps the weapon that the defeats the bene gesserit in the last book is a clue also....its a shame he never wrote the next book.
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    • Darth
      Darth
      offline 10

      Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

      Thu, June 10, 2004 - 12:13 PM
      I STILL have to read 'Chapterhouse: Dune'! I jsut found a 1st print hardcover on eBay that should be arriving shortly. I can't friggin' wait.
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      • Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

        Fri, June 11, 2004 - 7:20 PM
        I was really confused abouthe golden path because the Bene Gesserit and also Leto belived in a golden, path both bent on bassically the same goal: the continued survival of humankind. More hints about it are in Heretics, the Leto's Golden path is the Golden path because it has a "noble purpose",as opposed to the breeding program of the Gesserit. the Golden path needs to have abnormalites, revolutionarys or key figures to continue??!?!? Does this make sense? People like siona, Teg, Odrade all all necessary for the path. the end of heretics ends with strange remarks about breaking Leto's hold of our destiny.....
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        • J. D.
          J. D.
          online 22

          Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

          Fri, February 4, 2005 - 1:56 PM
          I think the Golden Path was Leto II's way of breaking his hold on human destiny. Doesn't he say at one point that the lesson of his millennia of tyranny is that humanity should forever more distrust prophets and messiahs?
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  • Elis...
    Elisabeth
    online 69

    Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

    Fri, June 11, 2004 - 8:18 PM
    Well, in the appendix of the first book, you read that it wasn't Liet's idea, but his father's Pardot Kynes, to remake Dune. Liet just followed his father's plan.

    And it wasn't the greening of dune that made the Freman weak. Paul comments on the religious fanaticism as he watched Stilgar go from strong Freman leader to a sycophant of his Lisan Al-Giab, their prophet.

    Absolute power and religious fanaticism corrupted the Freman.
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    • PutPot
      PutPot
      offline 3

      Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

      Mon, June 14, 2004 - 1:42 PM
      This is a subject I've given some thought to lately.
      What was the point of a greenification of Dune in the eyes of Leto II? To wean the universe from spice? Why? Was humanity getting to complacent with the only method of long distance space-travel besides computers? If so, it seems that they found it the noships so prevelant in Heretics and Chapterhouse.

      Looks like another reading of God Emperor and Heretics is in order. Some of the answers are most likely there.

      Liet and the Fremen dreamed of a green Dune yet they revered the worms as God. This is confusing to me. Worms wouldn't survive on a Dune where water was abdundant.
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      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

        Mon, June 14, 2004 - 3:45 PM
        It's been a long time since I last read God Emperor and Heretics, but based off of what I recall, as well as reading the new books, I think it has to do with power and who wields it. The problem was that the spice caused a focusing of power in a few places that misused the power. By breaking man's dependency on the spice, the hope was to give humanity back it's ability to choose for itself and not exist as a slave to some outside influence (in the new books, this is the machines, in the old books it is the spice monopolies.)

        I could be way off on this though.
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  • Tatiana
    Tatiana
    offline 24

    Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

    Thu, February 3, 2005 - 9:38 PM
    Freman always had an access to their memories of the great warriors - they only had to get enought spice for the whole tribe to join in...
    It's an interesting cycle: death/birth experience. While Dune was alive, green and all pretty, it was a deadly time for mankind. Dune is dead, worms bring death - people unfold their potential.
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    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

      Sat, February 5, 2005 - 5:25 PM
      Let's not forget the aspect of He Who Controls the Spice, Controls the Universe.

      Never before in the history of humanity had there been a universal tyrant who dominated all aspects of their lives on every planet.

      They had also never known a tyrant that outlived a lifetime, or two, or twenty. We're talking about 3000 years of one ruler, one emperor, one source for spice. All were beholden to him. After that much tyranny, humanity would forever have it ingrained into their being that this was a bad thing, and to reject it.

      I do think the concept was borrowed heavily from Hobbs Leviathan. There's a lot of similar conecpts between the two, and it hold true today as it did when it was written. It's thes etypes of things that makes Franks work contempory today as it was when it was written. There's a lot of underlying messages he was putting out about philospphy, humanity, gov't and religion.

      --S
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  • snak...
    snakeappletree
    offline 0

    Re: Was a green Dune a good idea?

    Fri, April 7, 2006 - 3:22 PM
    Pardot & Liet Kynes understood the consequences of the Holy vision of Green Dune.
    We call him Umma for a very good reason.
    The vision of the fremen-ecologists & it's the affect on spice production...
    ..and on the sandworms, Shai-Hulud, the sandplankton's relation with water...
    ...is part of the background for LetoII's education. So assumedly it is an essential part of His Golden Path.
    Green Dune is a teaching aide for people of planet Earth. Especially equatorial regions & the growing deserts.
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